Curse

Dreamsmith · Jun 02, 2005, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aug

Why did you go Mo/W if you aren't using Divine Favor?

For the armor. A Mo/W is going to have a hell of a lot more energy than a W/Mo, plus twice the regen rate. If you're heavily into smiting and energy rather than adrenal skills, it makes a lot more sense to be a Mo/W than a W/Mo. Not to mention the runes...

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It sort of defeats the whole purpose of playing a Mo primary if you don't plan to heal or use protection enchants (which will heal with Divine Favor).

If you think "the whole purpose" of your primary profession choice is your choice of primary attribute, you have a lot to learn about how this game works.

Macel · Jun 02, 2005, 08:04 PM // 20:04

I just recently had a pvp match.. First time around, my team lost horribly.. During the match I asked if one of the last two guys was going to use res sig on me... One didnt bring res signet.. Oh well.. The other responded by saying "Yeah I would have ressed you if you werent such a s----y f-----g healer."

The next game I played, I went on to win 30 matches in a row and received praises from everyone in the group.

The moral of this story is, don't let other people get to you. Since you're perceived as the center of the group you will either get blamed or praised.

Trenchsoul · Jun 02, 2005, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Why is everyone crying about "stereotype" monks? Did everyone just ignore my post? In PvE there is one kind of monk, a healing monk. People think monk=healer because that is what they are. Why are two out of the three trees for monk healing and protection? Because that's the function of the class. You can kick and scream all you want, but the primary function of monks is to heal. In WoW a lot of people liked playing Shadow Preists because you could deal incredible amounts of damage, but only in 1v1 or small group PvP and soloing in PvE. In groups nobody will, or ever will, invite a shadow preist on a raid. That isn't their function. I can't say it enough. Just as I don't expect an elementalist to try to tank, even if he wants to really really bad. His function is damage, in some form or another.

sandstorm87 · Jun 02, 2005, 08:24 PM // 20:24

well if been playing GW from the second day it came out
and today i was shocked

I GOT MY FIRST PRAISE!

a elementalist told me i was a very good healer, and i was stunned, that never happend to me (ok maybe once)

and know you dont need to think that im normally a crappy healer but this was just the first time someone sayd anything.
normally nobody says something if i just heal them before they die

And if you start as a monk, you will always be a healer in the eyes of others so unless you do want to be a healer, dont take monk as your primaire prof.

Zilm · Jun 02, 2005, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trenchsoul

Why is everyone crying about "stereotype" monks? Did everyone just ignore my post? In PvE there is one kind of monk, a healing monk. People think monk=healer because that is what they are. Why are two out of the three trees for monk healing and protection? Because that's the function of the class. You can kick and scream all you want, but the primary function of monks is to heal.

You have taken the general view for the PvE side of the game. If someone's Primary is X than thats all they should do. And in the case of pug's it's the general viewpoint. And it has become accepted practice. The real shame is how this may be limiting people the opportunity to experiment with the professions. When grouping the second profession can speak volumes about their game play. When I see a Mo/W I expect them to melee, and can fully take care of themself. E/Me may be a nuker at lower levels but could be a great shut down character at higher levels.

But the start of the thread sheds light on the narrow viewpoints many have of the game in PvE. I have seen a high level Mo/W that was quite powerful in PvE. I was tempted to create one, but the general PvE public simply doesn't accept it as was initially stated.

My monk presently has 0 attribute points in my secondary Mesmer due to this PvE viewpoint. But this build can be very effective in PvP.

This game (and it is a game right?) should be played by each person as they see fit. They bought it, they can play it how they see fit.

And So_Cal, you wont believe all the missions you can do with henches. Or, find a good guild that needs these creative builds for PvP play. I am sure they will gladly help you!

Trenchsoul · Jun 02, 2005, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Excuse me while I go make an E/W that doesn't use any elementalist skills and join some PvP groups, because I can play however I want. What a ridiculous thought. You can play however you want, but that doesn't mean you should bother other people with your cerebral diarrhea that you call a "build." No matter how you look at it, some things just don't work, and some classes are meant to do certain jobs. Sure you can make a smiting monk, but that isn't necessary to anyone. Groups need healers, and you're just wasting everyone's time by denying that monks are healers.

They can play it "how they see fit," they just won't be doing it in my groups. People are free to be stupid, but not around me.

appleseed · Jun 02, 2005, 09:12 PM // 21:12

People need monks to be nothing but dedicated healers because they often completely forego any sort of balancing, defense, or any strategy in their skill loadout. It's usually 8 attack skills or spells and nothing else.

The ones with balanced builds that works off a strategy? Probably soloing or within a guild group, not pickup.

Akshara · Jun 02, 2005, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Why did you go Mo/W if you aren't using Divine Favor?

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If you aren't healing/protecting, you should've chosen a different primary class, and gone Monk as a secondary.

While there's some merit to these statements, a Smiting Prayers monk with Divine Prayers who utilizes group buffs has a passive heal on every monk spell/skill cast, not just on healing and protection prayers. Plus as was mentioned earlier, the smiting runes require a monk primary.

There are many benefits to having a smiting monk in a group, and I'm saying this as primarily a warrior. Having a good healer is important, of course. But I've been in groups with secondary healers that went just as well or better than groups with a primary healer.

Bottom line, if you don't want a non-healer based monk in your group, don't invite him. When I encounter smiting monks and rangers looking for a group, I generally invite them to join, and it's usually a lot of fun. In my experience, players who take the time and effort to design a unique build are generally more fun to play with and are open to using strategy and patience within missions; much moreso than those who take an unimaginative bread 'n butter approach to their characters, and who tend to just rush through the missions or quests like a bat out of hell.

Sure, it may take us an hour longer to complete the mission than most groups. And yes, my warrior might die a few times along the way. But who cares? It's fun to have a smiting monk, wilderness ranger, death magic necro, inspiration mesmer or whatever unusual build in a group sometimes.

Variety is the spice of life, and all that...

Akshara · Jun 02, 2005, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

People need monks to be nothing but dedicated healers because they often completely forego any sort of balancing, defense, or any strategy in their skill loadout.

I agree. The only people who really *need* a primary, dedicated healing monk to complete a mission or quest are likely those who don't give much thought to strategy and group dynamics, and just barrel through taking uber damage and need healing constantly. They forget that the healing bar refills between encounters... if one waits a few seconds, that is.

How many groups have you all been in where they actually took the time before heading out the portal to check the party's skill selections and how they work together? Most of the groups I've joined have been, "Hello. Let's gogogo..."

Imaginos · Jun 02, 2005, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trenchsoul

There aren't enough monks around for players to accept that monks want to do damage. I'll tell you what's wrong with monks doing damage, there is one healing class: monks. Every other class in the game is a damage dealing class in some form or another. Why did you go Mo/W? That's backwards. If you're a monk primary then you need to heal, that is what divine favor is for. If you wanted to do damage with smiting skills W/Mo would have been the way to go. If there were multiple healing classes or other ways to get healing then yes, you could be a smiting monk. Since there aren't though, too bad.

I very much despise having a healer class in games. It limits what you can do in groups, and nobody will go without a healer. In every MMO I've played I've always had to wait around for the one class every group needs and nobody wants to play.

You are very incorrect in thinking a w/mo can do the stuf a mo/w can.

A warrior has greater armor but no resistance to elemental damage and you'll be taking alot of elemental damage unless you want to focus on trying to farm spots like zelots in riverside. Your energy regen as a warrior blows goats. Toss on 1 maintained spell and its even worse and there are times when things like boniti's defense will just not work.

A monk gets 2x the energy regen of a warrior and if they go prot / smite they will dish out more damage and take less damage then a war prime.

I do agree that a healer class in any mmorpg style game limits the game as you've stated.

timts · Jun 02, 2005, 09:43 PM // 21:43

I got many many TY for heal and REV, as a monk.
I dont do much smiting for solo though, in a good team, some time I don't even heal much as the team can survive by itself.

just did the defend fort for the dwarf king mission(forgot the name). the team went on smoothly. thank god many dumb people got stuck at desert before ascension for long time.

btw, Aegis is great, with high divine favor, it helps a lot.
some time I feel healing is secondary priority to divine favor.

Hell Marauder · Jun 02, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06

There is nothing wrong with smiting monk, but there's dire need for primary healer right now. It's like in a great epidemic, with shortage of doctors, every M.D. needs to pitch in, for the good of everyone. So a smiting monk should try to play a healing monk for a while to help your PUG's, at same time learning the intricacy of healing. And after you ascend and don't need PUG's anymore, you can go back playing smiting monk for your guild. That's why GW is great is its flexibility. Remember you are there for your team, not yourself; so if your team needs a healer, play one for them.

Neo-LD · Jun 02, 2005, 10:18 PM // 22:18

for pve, i dont see whats wrong with a healing monk (who spams 5 and 0 mana heal spells everywhere) to take along zealots fire. Decent smiting prayers will make the damage good, for a monk. Usually you will only damage 1 guy for like 30 per cast, but hey dont complain, your a monk and normally wouldnt be dealing anything. Zealots fire lasts a minute and doesnt drain energy.

Also consider taking along draw conditions. Casts in 1/4 a second, and has no recharge. If any guy is completly swathed in enemies, rapidly draw conditions them (even if they have no conditions) to heal with divine favor and deal massive daage with zealots fire.

About monks entering melee range, though, I think its bad idea. High level bad guys just rip you apart. Hamstring, Crushing Blow, you name it, monks dont need/want to be around that. Even against the measly charr, melee makes you life 10x harder than it has to be. Every other class in the game can deal damage better than you. Dont be a monk with an identity crisis.

Axehilt · Jun 02, 2005, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trenchsoul

Why is everyone crying about "stereotype" monks? Did everyone just ignore my post? In PvE there is one kind of monk, a healing monk. People think monk=healer because that is what they are. Why are two out of the three trees for monk healing and protection? Because that's the function of the class. You can kick and scream all you want, but the primary function of monks is to heal. In WoW a lot of people liked playing Shadow Preists because you could deal incredible amounts of damage, but only in 1v1 or small group PvP and soloing in PvE. In groups nobody will, or ever will, invite a shadow preist on a raid. That isn't their function. I can't say it enough. Just as I don't expect an elementalist to try to tank, even if he wants to really really bad. His function is damage, in some form or another.

I think that's the sort of narrow-minded view a lot of players try to carry over from other MMORPGs like WoW.

Fact is - especially in PVE - each class can perform a lot of different roles. Nobody can be a primary healer as well as a Monk primary can, but your group might not even need a Monk primary if it has enough damage mitigation, damage output, and heals. As long as your party is constructed with each member's strengths/weaknesses in mind, you can survive without a Monk primary.

Guild Wars is very different from WoW. A Mage or Necromancer in WoW has zero power to function as primary healer. An E/Mo or N/Mo can function quite well as primary healer. And while a Smiting Monk might not have the raw damage output over time as an Elementalist, it still has a ton of avenues for dealing damage - again, as long as your group identifies that your Smiting Monk isn't your Primary Healer you will adapt and ensure everyone has damage mitigation, damage output, and healing skills designed to make up for that lack.

You should definitely play to your class' strengths/weaknesses, but this doesn't innately lock you into one specific style of play. A E/W can be played as a frontline attacker if he takes advantage of his strengths (high energy/energy regen) and minimizes his weaknesses (low armor). Will a E/W with no Elementalist skills be effective? Probably not. But there are viable builds for a melee-oriented E/W.

N/Ws in particular are great melee-oriented casters.

This thread really boils down to two main factors:

A. Making sure your build actually is viable. You have to honestly examine the role you're trying to perform and compare yourself with other classes that perform that normally perform that role. Compare your Smiting Monk with an Elementalist Nuker - is your raw damage output comparable? If the damage output is less, then are the other effects (knockdown/etc) or your other skills (moderate healing? Protection? Something else?) going to compensate for your reduced offense?

If these issues aren't addressed, your build might simply suck.

B. Making sure you're playing with open minded players. Either you have to convince narrow minded public players of your role by advertising "Damage Dealer LFG!", or you need to find smart, open-minded players to group with. Neither of these options is easy - public player ignorance is a ferocious beast which I am often ill-equipped to defeat.

Red Locust · Jun 03, 2005, 12:24 AM // 00:24

In all honesty, some monks deserve the heat they're getting. Starting the game out as a character with very little self-heal, I was your average player who relied on the monk for protection in times of need. I was surprised at how many times our group would get wiped out, despite a monk behind us, but I resisted the urge to insult him. It must be real hard work, I thought, more than one person can handle. I had around 300 deaths.

Then I went through the game, played lots of PvP, noticed that a monk is sorely needed in the tombs, and went off to create my own monk. And I'll be damned if I didn't get my team through the most difficult situations. I've just ascended my monk, and I have about 45 deaths, more than half of those accidental due to doing runs from outpost to outpost in the crystal desert. I can easily keep everyone alive through the 3 missions. In fact, I completed every ascension trial on my first try (elone took me twice, but the first time ended abruptly when one guy decided to lure every single enemy to our ghostly hero and get him killed). I've been getting all the "wow, nice healing; what an awesome monk; great job" comments all the time.

So bottom line is, if you're a lone monk, you can keep your whole team alive if you know what you're doing. There are a lot of bad monks out there, and it becomes painfully obvious when they're in charge of keeping the whole team alive.
Some guy died in 2 hits? Maybe you should've noticed those hydras heading his way and thrown down a protective spirit and RoF. Warriors getting swarmed to death? Maybe you should've thrown down a healing seed or life bond instead of sleeping on the job.

Seriously, when everybody dies and blames the monk, it most likely IS their fault. No, you don't need everyone to self-heal. No, you don't need 3 monks in a party. No, you don't need to be a jerk and have a "DNH" list. You need to play your role properly.

Red Locust · Jun 03, 2005, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Oh and "smiting monks" are quite hilarious. You're telling me that the only reason you went monk primary is for the runes? And that you don't have absolutely any points invested in protection, healing, or divine? Symbol of Wrath costs 5 energy, and Zealot's Fire lasts for 60 seconds. I don't see why you need 50 energy and 4 pips of regen for that. Warrior primary would get you more armor, much more survivability, absorption runes, strength for more damage, etc.

I have nothing against smiting monks that also take protection or healing, but these builds that only use smiting are a total waste of monk primary. You'd better warn your team that you're a smiter, since everyone expects you to keep them alive. And don't tell me, "oh, I'm not gonna be able to get a group if others know I'm a smiter."

Jimbodan · Jun 03, 2005, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Red Locust, I'm curious as to what your Monk build is like? Would you mind posting it? I'm finding my monk having a harder and harder time healing as she levels up, especially now in 8 person groups when I'm the only monk trying to keep everyone alive.

Akshara · Jun 03, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

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You're telling me that the only reason you went monk primary is for the runes? And that you don't have absolutely any points invested in protection, healing, or divine?

I do actually invest in other attributes as well. My strategy is to switch the attributes and skills around depending on the group situation. If we have another healer, then I stick with Smiting and a res spell. If there isn't another good healer (or the one we have is having a hard time), then I'll switch things around to fit the group. And I always keep Divine Prayers, regardless of whether I'm using smiting or healing prayers... it gives a passive healing bonus to smiting prayers as well.

Fwiw, I did the opposite of you... started out as a healing/smiting monk, and got so tired of warriors who ran off and used zero strategy, that I went back and created a monk-friendly warrior who welcomes strategies and target callers, and allows the monks to regen between encounters. If the healer is in trouble, I use the warrior to block attackers and keep them alive so they can do their job.

Yojinj · Jun 03, 2005, 01:33 AM // 01:33

There is only one hardcore solution to the whole problem of Monk diversity.
Cut down on the Monks healing abilitys and give all other classes some more healing skill.
I find it most disturbing that ppl expect anyone to do as they want them to.
Make the Monk a martial arts using class with some better heal and protect spells but not as now. Shall the other classes get different heal spells and let all group members care for each other.
This would reliefe the monks and strenghten teamplay.

@AK
Yeah there are many that give no one time to recharge energy andthen whine because you didn't heal them. Problem is that Warriors have it easy in the early game and can rush into mobs.
Later (before and after ascencion) a mob will eat any single rushing warrior alive (except the warrior is build to farm and only attacks one kind of enemy).
Most don't seemto grasp that the game gets harder and harder after you reached lvl 20.

Fantras · Jun 03, 2005, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trenchsoul

Excuse me while I go make an E/W that doesn't use any elementalist skills and join some PvP groups, because I can play however I want. What a ridiculous thought. You can play however you want, but that doesn't mean you should bother other people with your cerebral diarrhea that you call a "build." No matter how you look at it, some things just don't work, and some classes are meant to do certain jobs. Sure you can make a smiting monk, but that isn't necessary to anyone. Groups need healers, and you're just wasting everyone's time by denying that monks are healers.

They can play it "how they see fit," they just won't be doing it in my groups. People are free to be stupid, but not around me.

While I understand where you are coming from by saying people who concentrate on their secondary proffessions in a build may be missing a few things, I think that statement is rather narrow. Smiting monks aren't necessary to anyone? Wow. Have fun at the bottom of the ladder with that attitude.